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Infidel's ignored ideas

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Posted by Dune on 07/23

Infidel takes a lot of time to write ideas on how to make legend a better place to pkill. I read a lot of his posts and I notice his increasing frustration with the community here. Id like to say, that as a fellow pkiller, who likes legend for pkill (yes, thats a valid reason to like legend) that I support all his ideas. He still has the energy to post them! Thank god. I agree with most all of what he says and I would like to add my support! I would also like to say that I used to post a lot on this board too.. with various characters. I dont post anymore cause it seems like my suggestions arent really listened to:( Cheers to Infidel for still trying! Its people like him that make the combat system so well tuned here. You dont figure out that certain spells or skills are overpowered or whatever or not usefull, etc by role playing.... I have a lot of opinions actually on how to make this place better, but I dont feel like going into them, only to have a person that plays legend mostly for the social aspect to discredit them (and flame me!) with selfish concerns. Yes, there are some pkillers that are played by immature players that clutter chat etc.... not all pkillers are like this! I also just hate this anti-pkiller sentiment that so many players have. It seems that they think that making any kind of code suggestions is like bashing the imms. PKillers fight eachother... when you bash a mob, you dont know how much your bash did, or whether it was effective. Its no wonder that so much good combat system info comes from active pkillers. So when you see Infidel posting about the combat system, trust him.. He is one of the few pkillers that still bothers to post on this board! Its damn abusive posting something on here and having all these randoms chant kere agni mrti ex your idea. Dune:)

From: Jieret Tuesday, July 20, 05:45AM

Whoa, the first person to actually agree with Infidel. I have been wondering how long it would be till someone pointed out that he has recieved absolutly no positive comment from any of the pkillers, no supporting messages from the GMs of any clan, or anything to say that its worth doing. Coupled with that, the posts containing objections have mostly been just as valid as problems with his system, and he has yet to address those as anything other that the whining of people who get in the way of his master plan. I personally see it as elitist, unnecessary, and counter-productive to the goals he has stated, but then I don't really have a better answer. However if I seriously did think it was worth implementing i would be trying to address the concerns raised about it instead of shrugging them off as mere nothings. If it is worth implementing, then answer me one question. Why do pkillers deserve an item that gives them an innate advantage over other characters? You provide an answer to that representing the whole playerbase from the newest newbie to the oldest oldie and I will back this idea to the hilt. And FYI, improving pkill isn't that reason. Would you offer the same item to anyone with a good RP? Its the same principle. Jieret Redbeard.

From: Infidel Tuesday, July 20, 05:59AM

Are you sure you read my messages? Point out one objection that I haven't addressed, I was sure I got them all.

From: Infidel Tuesday, July 20, 06:13AM

BTW, when was the last time you saw something from this board implemented? Perhaps people are realising that messages of support are as much a waste of time as the idea itself.

From: Ton Tuesday, July 20, 11:22AM

Noticing the decline of posts here in the last month or two, I would say that either people that read this board are getting more lazy, or getting frustrated. Either way, posts seem like they are way down, as are compliments and expansions on the ideas posted. I'm not sure why this is happening, but I know it is at least for me. Ton PS- Maybe we just don't have enough that we see 'wrong' here to post about it, and everything is perfect! (heh)

From: Fatale Tuesday, July 20, 02:15PM

I've personally seen a few of the ideas I've put on the idea channel go in recently. Perhaps the ideas on the discussion board simply aren't feasible and don't fit in with the progress of Legend?

From: Akai_Monkey Tuesday, July 20, 02:38PM

ummm people who are good at RP do get items get all them freakin strings, where as i dont have a single one so maybe we should have some way to get coupons from pkill too?

From: Amadio Tuesday, July 20, 05:02PM

In response to Akai_Hayate: what has RP got to do with winning coupons? You get coupons for playing games, not for RPing. I think occasionally people will be awarded coupons for nifty RP submissions to the LT, but tokens are far more common prizes for that. If you don't have a lot of strung stuff, it has nothing to do with whether or not you RP, and a lot to do with how good you are at recall tag and flag hunts and such.

From: Tarn Tuesday, July 20, 10:12PM

IMHO, coupons benefit both those who RP and those who don't. Those who RP can find it tough to get enough coupons on their own, so those who don't RP can then make large amounts of cash out of selling their unneeded coupons to the RP-ers. Tarn

From: Israfel Wednesday, July 21, 10:05AM

I personally like the idea that Infidel suggested, and I understand why it DOES need to have a stat bonus. That it's incentive for nonrp pkillers to kill over it is pretty obvious. I personally wouldn't pk over a zip string (well with my pkiller whom I'm too lazy to log in). An idea I had from Tarn (she suggested it) was that the item in question could be pk-only benefits - meaning that only in pk situations would it have a use. Say it's +6hit/dam, but ONLY against another PC> My suggestion was a perma, 60% to 80% effective sink. I can only think of about 3-4 mobs I'd sink for, offhand, as an unclanned, (I discount HoL because I'm just too lazy to do that, others might) but even so the effect of a sink on an unclanned is mostly minimal. This is easily supported by the fact taht most unclanneds have sucky sinks, and the only people one sees regularly renewing sinks are pkillers. I think the problem with Infidel's posts are not the ideas, which are good but perhaps the phrasing which tends to raise hackles. In the crossfire of irritated people, whether clanned or unclanned, good ideas are lost. I DO feel that the discussion board suggestions seem to be ignored by imms in general - and I would like a standard response at least like, we like that, but it won't fly, we don't like that, it's unbalancing. Just one line - to show the ideas are at least being seen. And Dune, keep posting, at least they made the change to backstab a little less drastic. Israfel Shadowleaf Servant of the Lady

From: LadyAce Wednesday, July 21, 10:24AM

A few thoughts on the nature of the discussion board, and the role it plays in discussing things with the imm staff. This board is read and considered, on a regular basis. I've said earlier that we're relatively 'full up' right now, and the projects that get done are either the high-priority bugs, the larger projects that fit with our long-term goals, or 'the way-cool thing that some imm got inspired to write and ran off and did'. People tend to work on projects and ideas that inspire them. But we've raised the bar, in terms of new suggestions, because we're so full up on things to do. Your idea might be great, but if it requires any large degree of work and or doesn't inspire one of our volunteers to step up and do it, then it's not so likely to get done. Even if it seems like a good idea now, the larger projects require that the person suggesting them wait for a year or perhaps more before they'd go into the game. If your idea isn't getting the response you want, ask why. Remind us that you are interested in our response. Sure, we should be more active in responding to ideas. We should be more active in building, coding, communicating, developing, etc. -- it is easy to say "hey, you there, work harder!" I don't think any of us work on Legend 24/7, and until we do, you can always tell us to do more. On the other hand, let's look at what we're already doing -- it's pretty darn good. Every week, new features go in, bugs are fixed, progress is made. We've got up weeks and down weeks, sometimes we put in good stuff and sometimes we screw up. You've got imms here every day, working away at making this a better place. This mud is at a point where we have a set of older and established players who think about the game in an intelligent way. They don't always agree with each other, or us, but they have a stake in this place. It's reasonably apparent what the imms are doing to make this place better. Our weekly reports go into the LT, the typos that make you insane, disappear, the bugs that interrupt your fun, get squashed. Updates and improvements to the code go in weekly. We answer your questions, we take care of your descriptions, we deal with the cheaters and do our best with the troublemakers. That's what we do with our power, but what do you do with yours? What can you do with yours? You can make suggestions. You can point out problems. You can motivate us with your attitudes, and unmotivate us with your attitudes. You can look at how you treat each other and the atmosphere that creates. I've seen a lot of positive work come from the mortals here, and I've seen some negative. As for the previous discussion about a hit/dam item that prompted (or partially prompted) this thread, here's a bit of a timeline on how my thoughts went in reading it over the last few days. Infidel brings up an idea, and I think hm, I'd love to see more RP in pk, even if very limited, but it should be because it's fun, not out of an in-game bonus. I read again later, and think ah, good, someone pointed this out, I wonder what kind of response he will have. I come back after a bit, and see oh, he responds that RP isn't the goal at all, zip wouldn't be acceptable, so it must not just be a prestige issue. Hm, custom code to give non-RP pk'ers some motivation to RP...not sure it's worth it, considering what else we have going. But hold on a moment, he just said that the game is an empty shell (or something) and there are tons of better places. Boy, that makes me want to sit down and talk with him about some specific suggestion, when he's just said that he considers the place worthless. Not. So if it's reaction to the ideas you want, skip the insults. It really does beg the question why someone is here, if they think it sucks. I'm not saying "you there, critic, leave!" -- it's far from the truth. I really wanna know why someone would spend time and energy here, suggesting, thinking, posting, and thereby earning my attention, only to take that and turn it around and tell me they think the place is worthless? I can understand feeling frustrated and unlistened-to, but telling me, and the other readers of this board, that you consider the whole place terrible, is simply an act of self-betrayal. My reaction to the idea itself is posted above. -LA

From: Infidel Wednesday, July 21, 12:48PM

To quote what I said: "I'm just amazed how people can be content with this empty shell of a MUD in comparison with what's provided elsewhere, artifacts, kingdoms gold held in halls with hired mobs to guard it etc etc" You replied with "But hold on a moment, he just said that the game is an empty shell (or something) and there are tons of better places." Then.. "only to take that and turn it around and tell me they think the place is worthless? I can understand feeling frustrated and unlistened-to, but telling me, and the other readers of this board, that you consider the whole place terrible, is simply an act of self-betrayal." Geez, now I remind myself of Jean.. Anyway, you seem to have read a lot into that single sentence, I was only talking about the pk related features that keep things interesting. This MUD is totally void of anything that gives us any real reason to pk and it's the cause of many problems IMO.

From: LadyAce Wednesday, July 21, 01:19PM

I agree, I read a fair bit into that sentence -- strong statements have a way of making people react to them -- and not necessarily positively. I find that when people are down on this place, and down on it in a less than constructive manner, I have a lot less interest in engaging in a debate with them. After all, I'm putting my ideas out in as open and "vulnerable" sort of way as possible -- if the line between "discussion" and "rant" looks threatened, then I start to wonder if my effort really has a point. On the other hand, you didn't see me saying "sniff, you said mean things about our mud, I'm not going to talk to you ever again!" -- so don't be too concerned. It's one thing to say "empty shell" and another thing to say "there's not much reason to pk and it's a cause of problems" -- and since you said both, I encourage you to take the latter approach, I'm much better at listening and responding to it, and I suspect that others are as well. -LA

From: Ariel Wednesday, July 21, 05:43PM

Actually, pkillers have fought and died for bits of zip. Anyone remember Jehannum's pkill game, where LadyAce strung up zip for all the clans and rogues and stuff? This was about, oh, six months or so ago, maybe a little more. Anyway, my memory's pretty sketchy, so I don't even remember a fraction of what went on, but I do remember Agni winding up with his chalice strung as an Iscariot item, and Aginor and Ezekiel beating the hell out of each other (not like that was anything new) for their clans' zips. I remember Hugh going questing for his father's longsword, little things come back bit by bit. The point is, everyone I talked to at the time seemed to have fun whomping each other for no more than zip trophies. At the time there wasn't even any mention (that I can recall) of making the trophies have any sort of in-game benefit. Have we changed so much in six months that something that seemed to energize people back then is completely worthless now?

From: Stewart Thursday, July 22, 12:14PM

From: Fraegis Friday, July 23, 10:27AM

You are right, Infidel, quite a few things is wrong, also in my opinion. But it has very little do to with the code. I am not aiming this at you personally, you just said something was wrong here, and I thought I would add my thoughts. Yes, pkill must be boring for those of you who enjoy the challenge of a fight versus a non-mob opponent. Not to say that that is wrong to enjoy, but you all could do a little more to make that happen more often. Try having some courtesy. Always bashing the new pkillers, and keeping killing one for one stupid mistake is not exactly going to make more new people enable. All the looting/multiing is not exactly what gets more people to try pkill either. When you see a new pkiller, why do people always have to try to steal from that person "In order so see if you were in range. Besides, it is better than attacking you". Wow, that person must feel so much welcome. Why not stop and say hi, and ask if he or she has some questions about pkill, or needs some advice. That way you get more skilled opponents, which must provide more fun, but you also create a much better atmosphere in pkill, drawing more people into it. If people keep seeing multi's, and seeing people yell about looting/throwing insults at each other, most won't feel any desire at all to enable. But if they see that most pkillers have a good time, and are friendly to each other, meaning that even though someone is being jumped and loose, there are no harsh words thrown across channels, they will most likely be way more interested in enabling. So yes, something is wrong with pkill here, but it takes a lot other than code to fix it.


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