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PKOK, Coding Changes, and PK and all that

1999 Topic Index

Posted by Morphine on 09/02

I would first like to mention that I appreciate the idea that imms and morts alike work together to try to find a solution with the various problems of pkill. However, the deep-rooted probems of pkill in my opinion have absolutely -nothing- to do with how the mud is coded or administred. After flipping through some old issues of the Legendary Times, I relived a few of the old moments in my mind and realized a pressing issue that seems to be a major reason to the decay of pkill - in the current day and time, pkillers refuse to show any courtesy towards each other anymore. There was a day when even the most evil of characters was known to be helpful. If an accidental multi took place after a long drawn out fight, it was accepted, often the multi'er helped the victim recover xp, and life went on for everybody. In the current day, in the rare times where a death even takes place (before the flee'ing that usually tends to occur), if a multi follows, accidental or otherwise, it seems players are reluctant to even consider forgiveness as an option. It is my opinion that for any recovery to be made in the state of pkill, it has to start with the PLAYERS, not with the admins, not with the coders, but with the people who truly take part in the day to day action involved in pkill. We can discuss coding changes day after day, but while PKOK ideas seem to simplify things, how exciting will pkill truly be when you can decide who can jump you? Will the thrill even be there anymore? PK is what it is today because of the element of danger involved. Case in point: the PK shakes. I would imagine most old PK'ers probably know what these are: the rush of adrenaline during a good fight that really causes the true thrill in pkill. If a PKOK system were to be implemented, would there be any rush, any PK shakes, any thrill? My opinion is that the danger and resulting fun would be gone from the system. Although my opinion remains that coding has little to do with the problems in PK, I still think that perhaps lower XP losses would inspire better PK. Although XP loss adds to the element of danger, if losses were lessened, perhaps fights would more often conclude in a death, which is really what -should- be the result of a good pkill fight. Just thought I'd share these words with whoever cared to take the time to read them - I appreciate your time and welcome any rebuttals/ opinions you would care to share with my ideas. Morphine Nepenthe

From: Fear Monday, August 30, 01:24AM

well put, xp is prolly the biggest flaw in pk thusfar, I often find my pk'er running from a fight he has a good chance of winning, simply because I'm in an xp hole. and I add to what was said in the original post by morph. retiring from pk is a hassle for most, it's not worth it to log on day after day to the same BS and try to actually gain xp on the day. these are the two biggest problems in pk, and they have been for a long time. But what you propose isn't the answer, the multitude of crossplay your inviting makes me sick, and frankly, I don't think we have the imm staff to deal with it at this point. We definatly don't have enough admins for it with sandra being a builder now. my suggestion is simple, lower retirement to half of what it is now, this drastic change is for the worse, and would abolish retiring a pk'er altogether. Also the xp loss should lower a bit at mid level, and a lot at high level, it's nothing to spend an entire dat of being logged on (day rather). What I do find exciting, is being able to pkill with my alts, however I do believe that an arena type area would be much more fitting, something much like a pk tourney, that would not only promote pk in general with older players, it would give new players a taste of what "real" pkill is like. and if they like it, and feel they are doing well with the char in question, they are more than welcome to enable and pk with the more experienced players. One other thing about retirement, if I may. I've been told countless times that retiring is easy. Well, let me touch on that. These words are coming from immortals who have played here for a long time, they know the system extremely well, and they benifit from that, to them retirement is probably easy. Well, guess what, not everyone knows the system so well, and not everyone is good at pk. I find the arrogance to be simply amazing. well, I've rambled enough for now, please post your opinions.

From: LadyAce Monday, August 30, 01:47AM

If you want the thrill of the jump and be jumped style, you can simply pkok all. If you don't want it, then don't. Very easy to do, really. What we're adding is a way for people to choose the style of pk that they would like to participate in, rather than allowing it to be dictated to them by the most aggressive and/or bored elements of the playerbase. A willing and interested opponent is far more likely to give you an interesting fight, and to respond appropriately when it is finished, than an unwilling and uninterested one. -LA

From: Davien Monday, August 30, 05:37AM

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned in this 'arena' idea is the something many people have jumped up and down about. You say that jumping is part of pkill and adds life and excitement then say lets have an arena. How the hell can you jump someone in an arena? For gods sake, anyone who enters the place knows that others can kill them while they are in there and so will be well prepared. If they are not then they are simply stupid. The obvious answer I hear coming already is to put some good gear and/or mobs in there to 'entice' people in so they can be ambushed. Personally, I would be remarkable put out about that, even more so than the constant changes made because of pkillers already. Create healing, sink, choke, headbutt, stun, plus a whole heap of other things like pkillers only taking 70% damage in pkill battles have in no way improved the game, and code-wise must be a bitch to work with. There is no way that the pkill element should then be able to get some good gear/mobs/xp/anything exclusively to themselves. To those advocates of an arena, ask yourself if you would really want to wander around a 50 room blank area waiting for someone else to turn up with the intention of fighting you? Then ask if you knew you couldn't win the fight, would you go in there? Do you really think the arena would solve any of the current problems? Davien Holyoake.

From: Larnoc Monday, August 30, 06:02AM

This is probably the post that best mirrors my own opinions on the matter. I am neither an active pkiller nor a particularly good one. But I do agree wholeheartedly with Morphine on what is the problem... it's the people that make it what it is. From what I've seen and experienced it's the ignorance of people in assuming that the way they like to pkill is the way that all others should do it. While a pkok type system may fix the problem of the angry "I'll kill anyone because I'm just so damned godlike" pkillers out there forcing the way they wish to play on those who just want to rp.. it also takes out the risk, and the risk is part of what makes it exciting. But I can't really see it livening up pk or making more interest in it whe all I see from pk'ers on chat and info and other assorted places of spam is the whining, the multi-ing and people complaining that there is no-one on in their range. Why would people want to be associated with a group that carries on in a manner that screams of such immaturity and arrogance ? It's the people that suck, so it's the people that should change, not the code -Larnoc [insert witty last bit here]

From: Diamond Monday, August 30, 07:39AM

Well spoken, LA. Well spoken, LA. Oops, sorry, didn't mean to repeat. Diamond

From: Juggernaut Monday, August 30, 08:07AM

Not around much but I still read the boards. Apparently, this topic has been rehashed again and again and again and again. And obviously, it's almost always either the code OR the players that is at fault. Apparently, however, probably through some discussion, it was found that the code could ACTUALLY be changed whereas most people simply can't be. Personally, I'd like to see what this does first, since I don't see any hope of Barabas' a-people getting any nicer. Btw, any totally inexperienced/mediocre/sucky/awful/pathetic/RP pkillers complaining? (didn't meant to throw the RPers into the same slash group btw) Just wanted to know. The Juggernaut

From: Ariel Monday, August 30, 09:02AM

I'm personally not sure if pkok is a good idea or not yet, or if I like it, but as someone (Ea!?) said, if it doesn't work out, it can be ripped. I think if it stands a chance of accomodating more styles of play than the current system does, it's at least worth a look. Ari

From: Fear Monday, August 30, 10:05AM

OK, heres the flip side folks, we need to stop thinking code. We were promised trees years ago, and over and over, trees has been delayed because of things like this. Hell, trees in itself could, and will, make pk much more exciting. The new skills etc.., the new spells, to my understanding it a whole new system. Healers will actually do well with trees. Just an idea here, let's get skilltrees in and THEN worry about pk, rather than putting a temporary fix that'll take 6 months to code, and another 6 to debug. Trees are priority in this case, as they have been with so many cases in the past. Take a look at Rufus, He's devoted his entire time to tree's. Why you ask? I'm betting it's because of things exactly like this.

From: LadyAce Monday, August 30, 10:40AM

From: LadyAce Monday, August 30, 10:40AM

While I understand the concern about coding priorities, coding for PKOK has been in progress (off and on) for many months now. It will mimic the befriend code as far as interface is concerned, although it will require some separate coding depending on the policies we determine. Here's what (I think) you can expect for a timeline -- - more coding will go on, shaping up the system - the imm staff will have a series of discussions about the system and come up with a general position and set of policies - players will have the chance to comment (probably a special Q & A) - imms will respond and adjust to the comments as necessary I first proposed this idea to the staff a few months back, and it was generally received in a very favorable light. Since then, similar ideas have been proposed by a variety of characters, and the notion has been discussed on an informal basis with a number of mortals, including pkillers of all description. These discussions have taken place at Q & As, in person with the mortals, over tells, mail, etc. When we have more concrete details and policies, we'll discuss the issue more formally. After all, it wouldn't make much of a discussion if you ask us "What about a healer who is grouped but pkok none and out of range and invis and steps in to try to prevent a perma of their clanmate?" or other specific and policy-related questions, since the only response we can have is "Hm, not sure, need to do some more coding and discussing with the imm staff before we can answer it." -- that's just a recipe for frustration. -LA

From: Darkheart Monday, August 30, 12:08PM

It makes me laugh to think ppl cannot choose the style of pk they want at this point. It is actually very easy to go about without getting jumped too often, as seen in the case of many many many enabled chars that rarely get to see action. I don't think half our clanmates have ever gotten jumped for real and those who have gotten jumped played in a way such that they invited it I don't think Barabas was jumped often, and Aisha, Cyanide, Imp--, Viper, Rorshach, etc have prolly gotten out of the 'getting-jumped' scene after prolly one or two jumps from each enabled/active char. If one wants to play a 'quiet' pk scene, all they have to do is simply be less vocal, less visible, and in general less whiny while taking a few jumps in stride. It definately isn't, in my opinion, something to be hard-coded. What goes around comes around, and those that don't deserve jumps and multis simply don't get them. Darkheart Harkzael

From: Nestor Monday, August 30, 12:16PM

Backstab Infidel pkok none (dodges infidel blows, go invis) pkok all backstab Infidel and loop Yeah, a nice idea again...BTw, i'd like an oldxpscaleok so ppl who loved the old xpscale can have the opportunity to level the way they take fun with. Thank you. read board 75

From: Ariel Monday, August 30, 12:18PM

Heh, gimme a break. DH, you yourself said that you'll jump anyone who's on and in range. Like I said, I'm still not sure if pkok's a good solution. But face it, in the current system you pretty much have to come to play, or not at all. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but let's at least admit it.

From: Darkheart Monday, August 30, 12:58PM

yep, i jump everyone in range. once, less they deserve more. if you clan without expecting at least one jump from an active pker, what the hell are you thinking? sides, pkok would seriously eliminate the "cost" factor of pk -- no risk pk, woohoo, and stuff. unpkok should have a cost, and pkok all should be default if ppl choose to enter pk at all. that's my opinion to have it work at the very very least. dh

From: Deathangel Monday, August 30, 02:12PM

well I agree with quite a bit morphine has to say, most of it is what I believe I just don't have much in the way of ability to get it out coherently. :) As to whoever responded about the arena's being useless.. If you haven't noticed most of us who have mentioned the arena ideas are speaking of an arena in addition to the current pk system, not replacing it..

From: Pharku Tuesday, August 31, 08:30AM

I disagree with the original post.. It has to be done with code, there's not a whole lot you can do about players that don't give a damn or those that exist only to pkill and wait all day for someone to fight.. I feel a lot more sorry for those that have to wait hours and hours before they can start enjoying themselves than those who get jumped occassionally and don't want to be.. You can always run or get help or play unclanned, those keen on pk suffer constantly. I find it funny that it's possible to kill someone 10 lvls lower while death sets you back so much when just trying to level. Surely you don't expect people to enjoy pk with such a system? PK should be enjoyable at all levels, whether you live or die.

From: Darkheart Tuesday, August 31, 11:28AM

What people seem to forget is that PK is an option, and a privilege at that. When enabling, ppl are made aware of the consequences of their decision to enable. Those that think random jumping undermines the pk atmosphere are those who simply want to benefit from pk without being responsible for it. In a way, you are expecting to go through SL solo, get xp and fun and eq out of it without risk. It doesn't work that way. Or attempting to hit/flee herne or other mobs, thinking they won't come after you. No, there are mobs that are coded to be quite nasty, areas that are coded to be quite nasty, and guess what -- all of that adds to the fun. If you don't like the area, or a certain mob, avoid it. If you don't like random jumps, don't enable. PKOK, as much as it sounds like a very nifty idea, will only flatten the game. Why not ask for HUNTOK or AGGOK against mobs? Let's simply allow ppl to choose which mobs are to be agg to you, then choose which mobs can actually hurt you, etc. Darkheart Harkzael

From: December Thursday, September 02, 11:11PM

Nestor, I don't think your scenario is right. PKOK is supposed to be used to allow someone else to attack you, not to allow you to attack that person, as I understand it. So all Infidel would have to do is un-PKOK you, and go about his business. :P


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