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Posted by Conspiracy on 10/12

ok, here goes..

snipers (pure) from london and lima are all but dead, I'm the only one I can think of atm. my opinion why- We have toned down snipers to the point where without self-healing, they aren't so good in pk, againt their competition.

drawback 1) we made a 30 hp change to maxdam of a backstab. drawback 2) a while back, we made backstab have a two round skill lag, we then changed that back to one round, and have since made it random between one and two rounds.

I thino a 100 maxdam backstab should in fact do 100 damage, and here's why:

It's not uncommon for same damfreak str fighter to do 100 damage in one round, EVERY round.

Mages, well, fight a mage with a sniper (nameley a cause mage) and get back to me after being immolated, the damage from that is also pretty high, not to mention the -massive- eq damage it does. I run from a cause mage on sight, scrapped items can be hard to replace for someone like myself.

So, with that in mind is it so much to ask for a 100 HP backstab, one that can only be used once per tick? I mean, the 2 round skill lag can be easily worked around with wimpy, but my backstab does three-quarters of what it used to, IF I'm lucky.

I just don't see the point in this change, unless we are trying to rid the mud of snipers altogether.

With pkok on it's way regardless, I think dex/perc needs looked at and worked on, I know it won't mean much to coders coming from me, so please append your thoughts.


From: LadyAce Wednesday, October 06, 11:03AM

Right now, while high-perc chars are fun to play, they do indeed seem to have a hard time when they specialize around those high-perc skills. It's been this way for a while -- perc is not a fight stat on the same level of con/str/dex. When we have a wider body of skills (yes, this is the trees argument) then we might well be able to make the stat/skill combinations you call "sniper" a more playable combination. So you're right, it's not there right now, and I don't think you can really expect a change in the near-term, and it's up to Rufus etc. whether we shift that way in the future.


From: Zemus Wednesday, October 06, 07:59PM

Ok 100 dam backstabs is just nuts 88dam is bad enough now you want 100dam You didnt even mention para backstabs which in my opinion are just as good as or better sometimes than wfw stuns. Its by far the best skill

All you people that have had multi-para backstabs in a row know what I mean

just my thoughts


From: Conspiracy Wednesday, October 06, 08:14PM

how can you possibly compare a para to wfw?

1) para is random, which means rare.

2) wfw can and will do more damage than a backstab, given the player has a clue about this mud, which most don't.

3) wfw is stat based, the more mind you have/less I have, the better your chance of getting a wfw actually is. My surgeon para's ALOT more than any sniper I've ever played, the surgeon has roughly 60 dex/perc.

4) if a level 50 mage fights a level 50 sniper (snipers don't have much in the way of mind) and the mage sticks with his stin tactic, he'll get a wfw AT LEAST once, this is pretty much fact. so, will the same sniper get his "para" at least once, in the match? maybe if the moon is full, the tides are high, and the clock strikes midnight 14 times in one hour, a sniper will get such a garuntee.

My last sniper pk'er was 100 dex/perc, and although he did fairly well as a pk'er, he para'd -once- in pk, and he was extremely active.

My mage on the other hand, whom was my last pk'er, wfw'd at least once per fight. amazing, isn't it?

Sure, the imms will post about "karma" and everything else, but the fact remains that backstabbers have been so toned down that they have become obsolete, which is a true shame, considering the fact that they are by far the funnest char type to play, and to pkill with.

but like I said, unless you spam augment or spam roots, snipers are completely worthless, they cant beat a good mage, a good str fighting dam freak, and have alot of trouble against 100% stunning headbutt con freaks.

-Cons --- If you don't like me, Bite me.

From: Craven Wednesday, October 06, 08:47PM

Please, before disregarding this post as crap because of the name before fit, read it. I feel that this issue is a very hard one to look at. I've personally had quite a few mages and quite a few snipers. While I'll admit my mages wfw quite a bit, I'll say my snipers didn't do to bad either. Heres a few statistics from myself, who has had both as I stated earlier. With this character, 96 dex and 90 perc, I used to para about once every other fight or so, on average. The average para would allow me one round of fighting and one more backstab, for a total of around 200 damage. Not bad. On occasion I'd get 1 backstab, 2 rounds and no extra backstab, or I think even once I got the para, 2 rounds and 2 backstabs, but that was once in the 5 months I was pk.

As my last mage, who you all remember as mandarb if you remember him at all, he has 90 mind. I'd wfw approx. once a fight, maybe twice, and very rarely none. Wfw's don't really have an average that I can calculate because of their randomness on how long they last, which in my experience can be anywhere from 3-5 rounds, and a special inside of it counting as a round. With a 5 round wfw, I could easily do 200-300 damage, but with a shorter one not quite as much. I avoided using my own spell -immolate- because I hated to see friends or foes gear go up in smoke at the cost of 50 mana. It just didn't seem right. So while I DID use it occasionally, I was very wary about it. I think this alone is wrong, I have the skill, I should be able to use the damn thing without having to worry about my concious kicking in. Anyway, thats another problem. The average wfw damage would probably be anywhere from 150-300, averaging what 225? So approx. the same as a para, only a stun happens alot more often, and can happen more then once a tick. And while this does cost mana, It can do some hellacious damage. So, this is my idea of fixing the problem.

Since a sniper's main skill is once per tick, and you'd be amazed how often a str/con fighter dodges backstabs, I propose that the chance to para on backstab be changed from being based only on your perc to being based on your perc vs. theres. I don't think this should necessarily go off constantly, but I think it should be more then now. Here are some numbers I remember over the years. 100 perc is approx 16% chance of para, which is about 1 in 6 attempts. Maybe if you have 100 and they have 25, this could be upped to like 25, or even 30, which I _know_ stun is close to. While this could do quite a bit of damage, you need to remember, this is a one per tick thing. And while I don't think this change would be all that hard, seems like just copy paste, though I could be wrong, maybe this isn't the time for changes when trees are supposedly so close. I'd personally rather see trees then something that would boost snipers atm.

While I'm getting increasingly bored with my sniper because its luck, not skill anymore, and the fact that EVERYONE is one these days, and I tend to be different then the majority when possible, I think it would be nice if backstab was a bit more powerful, OR, failing that, that shoot was upped. I would be SO happy if I didn't miss 50% of my shots. Again, another topic, but when I have 90 perc, and miss half my shots, its quite a downer. My 90 mind mage doesn't miss half his spells. So this is another thing I suggest being looked into. This log is getting a bit long, so I'll end it with this. My big loss against barabas was big for one reason: I was wfw'd 3 times for a total of about 700 hp. One of these wfw's took 49% of my 549 hp, thats a hella lot. But, on the other hand, I once took leatherface from cuts, which was about 450 hp, to dying, which was about 40 hp in a double para. So it can go both ways, but I think it tends to lean more towards mages. Damn this is a big post :P


From: Conspiracy Thursday, October 07, 10:54AM

well said.

From: Darkheart Friday, October 08, 02:47AM

First off, i've never heard of 30 pt damage cap on backstabs.. think mine, even at oh-so-low perc does at least 35-45, with a good enough dagger

All in all, there's not much going for a dex/perc char, but that argument is moot considering that no character is limited to having just two stats that are competitive. There'll always be a third stat that a sniper can max or nearly max out on, and depending on what that stat is, needless to say, the efficiency of the char differs.

Currently, without the no-spam code in, it isn't tough for a sniper to hav enough spam gear to at least first aid or augment, which makes a sniper char rather off-balanced. A self-healing sniper can, theoretically, annul the 1-tick limit on backstab, and if it's a sniper who invested enough in having a decent backstab, that will pretty much even things out for the sniper.

Of course, it isn't just the sniper that can spam to heal themselves, and barring spam, snipers are a disadvantaged folk -- their stats rarely allow them to tank out a fight, and not being able to tank out a fight usually means that they can never actually get a "kill" if the enemy doesn't want to get killed. Considering that a sniper loses out heaps when losing the element of surprise, this means that a sniper can usually not kill, or wil suffer again from not having initiative.

Although one round skill lag on shoot and backstabs help, shoot does not do nearly enough damage for what it's worth, especially considering how often it misses.

Instead of toying around with more things like damage and stuff, i'd look into raising the probability to hit the target HEAPS such that arrows can only be avoided via dodge (and the 5% fail chance which will result in jam ming) once the shooter has sniper/deadeye.


From: Conspiracy Friday, October 08, 10:50AM

mmm, two very good pk'ers, agreeing with me, I'm amazed.

although you bring up very good points, DH, and I willingly take them into consoderation, my original thread was about a "true" sniper. by that I mean 100 dex/perc, and maybe around 40ish str and con. this char type is extremely limited, when the char is from lima or london. I will, however, agree to your proposal about dodge. It would make snipers true to their name, and they would actually shoot a gun, because there would be enough benifit to do so. Great idea, again, I hope it's taken into consideration.

And lastly, to LadyAce, I VERY STRONGLY disagree that mind isn't a useful fight stat, whether I'm being wfw'd, immolated, flamestruck, attacked my a sea of charmies, or walled into a room, anyway I look at it, my opinion is that it's the single best fight stat in the game because of it's HUGE versatility.

another thing that realy bothers me, the hide skill. not only can spam spellcasters see me sneaking, they can see me hidden as well, this hurts a alot with most sniper tactics, if a char wishes to have detect hidden, that char should suffer from lack of other things, not be able to spam back and forth in a time of 4 pulses. I think pkill without spam chars could possibly be the best thing for pkill that I've ever seen here, and I've been around for a few days now. not only will it make for a truer test of skills, it will be much easier to balance out all chars in general, because we would be looking at a specific char, rather than saying, "well he spam augments".. I hate to use this person as an example, because I have alot of respect fo for him, but lets take a look at dune, He has 3-4 sets of spam gear, for the most part what he does is know what to use against who, what stats beat what stats, and what it takes to win, more or less, he's playing a numbers game, which amazes me, btw. BUT, he has no conventional char behind his name, tell me how someone new to pkill can compete with this.

Again, no harm meant o Dune, I have the utmost respect for him both as a char and as a player.


From: Stewart Friday, October 08, 07:45PM

first and foremost, i'm a PURE 100 dex/per, london pure sniper. SNIPER POWER! so cons, your not the only one, and i COMPLETELY agree with what you say about dect hidden. and i'd also like to say that a item in a newly imped area makes me sick (think eye) hrm, what else.

pkill has become to depend more alot on how you make the char, not how you play the char. so anything spam is way EVIL. (cept dune, he's cool, and SCARY, VERY SCARY!) and yeah, snipers are under powered.

speaking mostly incomprehesably,


From: Darkheart Sunday, October 10, 07:51AM

any sniper that bothers to use bows and arrows can easily get rid of detect hidden (barring the opponent has nifty eq). else it'd be way too overpowered considering it only costs 15 mana for spellcasters to hide and requires only oh-so-much perc to hide.

it would be nice, however, to let snipers see hiding ppl if they have high enough perc. kinda silly that they can see sneak yet not those that hide.

From: Conspiracy Sunday, October 10, 11:10AM

DH, dude, I've stressed the fact that I'm talking about gun-using snipers at least twice, so scratch that.

From: Ariel Sunday, October 10, 01:29PM

Since all gun-using snipers can also use bows, I'm not sure what your point is, Cons. If guns suck, don't use them.

From: Conspiracy Sunday, October 10, 08:23PM

well ariel, f you want to use a bow you can start at any hometown, so what people are doing is starting a basic sniper, and spamming spells and skills that "normal" snipers wouldn't have, thus giving an extreme advantage to spam chars. that clear it up?

From: Ariel Sunday, October 10, 09:03PM

Spamming for surgical skills isn't any harder than spamming for spells or augment. And don't get nasty with me, if you don't want people to respond to you, don't post to the goddamn discussion board.

From: Stain Monday, October 11, 12:32AM

I am from london as well and regardless of weather you use a bow or gun that hometown is a bit of a handicap in my view.

Lima chars have somewhat limited herbal skills, Klien has the fabled fighter bonus or something (heard bits and peices) and 2c magery. Tarans are gods (shudder spam agument) and Agrabah gives you 3c magery. London means you can be a surgen (you can't self heal-=snicker first aid=-) or shoot, and with shot accuracy that pretty well means 0 fight benifits to being from london.

Expert parry dosn't do any more for me than the basic skill did for my last sniper, and having to spam for first aid is crazy. the stat diff between fight stats and stats for first aid mean I would be about helpless in spam gear for 8 or so hp's a pop with skill lag.

I am admitedly not one of the better killers on the mud, but I still do pretty well if I get lucky. This char type isn't so underpowered that we can't win, just makes it far less likely. I have to have a good fight all the way around to win with this char. My last char (con/str) could miss skills, take a long stun and still come out on top some times with 0 healing abilitys. I miss skills with this one and I most likely die. Like I said, my skill level is not that high, but luck is usually the deciding factor for this char.

I already said the basic abilitys you could start with from London were weak in comparison to the other hometowns, but when those skills don't even work with proper stats theres obviously a problem. It's really irrititating to have to 'hide' 8 times before it says it worked (and then you don't even know for sure) with 96perception. I completely agree that shoot is f---ed, too.

With deadeye and 90+perc seeing 'your shot goes wide' 3 times in row is pretty frustrating, not to mention seeing shots 'dodged' after 5 succesful aims (has happened to me 3 times in the last month) Kick seems to be pretty inconsistant, too, even with 97dex I laned as many kicks as I do now with my last char who had 60, maybe perception could also affect your acuracy there, since it is about the only other fight skill a dex/per sniper really uses besides bs/shoot (laugh choke).

From: Darkheart Monday, October 11, 05:24AM

londoners and limans aren't exactly underpowered compared to snipers of any other hometown, if you had really good reason as to why you chose to be from london or lima.

i personally had a sniper who didn't even have any bit of spam gear, who used a gun, and gosh darn it, did fairly well.

the key is knowing exactly why you chose the char to be from london or lima as opposed to the other hometowns, and capitalizing on it. guns are seriously deadly if you know how to use them, first aid is a monster if you think about it ... never mind, i'll spell it out for those of you who can't think straight.

with first aid, you bandage up enough in a tick to last a round if you aren't stupid enough to wait til the very last moment to do so, and after you first aid for a tick, you backstab, you first aid for a tick, you backstab... and way too many rooms in this game that can hide trails and baffle locate spells so you can easily aid while the opponent has no idea as to where you are. they can't even spam in one room cuz you can shoot them from a room next to them (and if they're truly stupid, you can even aim to full and snipe -poke demitri- even in the middle of pk).

but yah, just considering a character's potential (which basically means, placing the char in a tourney environment as opposed to the mud environment) snipers stink. regardless of what kind of snipers they are, when placed in a tourney environment, they stink.


From: Kaeos Tuesday, October 12, 03:24AM

Snipers....they are, to me, the more fun char to play.

They have weaknesses and strengths like every other char. All most players have to do is inspire us and bye bye sniper.

I also have to agree that shooting for snipers kinda sucks. with my close to 100 perc, i miss shots often. When I actually do get a stun shot, its last so short that by the time my skill lag goes away, the opponent is long gone.

If what i just said has nothing to do with the discussion its probably because i'm kinda tired...just thought i should add something cause i'm a sniper -shrug-

Kaeos GM of Demonic Order

the one that seriously thinks that pkill is so small, its not worth discussing the advantages and disadvantages of chars for pkill. =P

From: Suicide Tuesday, October 12, 09:23AM

hrm, your what I'd call a bowman Kaeos, onna those spam type chars.



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