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New Meditate Reqs.

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Posted by Roark on 10/28

Just one thing. As I understand the situation now, a full rudh, 100 mind mind mage has NO way of regenning mana at an enhanced rate. A MINIMUM req second circle/druid, (50 mind 60 spi), now has BOTH meditate and root.

Does this really seem balanced to you?

From: Craven Monday, October 25, 07:34PM

I agree completely roark. I can't even begin to understand why the hell spirit should be the sole stat to heal ourself.

I remember imms saying they don't like to make repetitive skills, when in fact they did, and they are both for the same stat. Why? If you did this to try to make spirit more important like I heard, you are going about it wrong. First of all, spirit has never been non-important for a mage. Its the fighters and snipers who have no use for spirit. So why make mages need more then they already do? If anything make expert profiencies need 25 spirit or something, or require spirit to bash and snipe.

I don't know, but I don't think upping stat reqs on mages who are already severely limited is a very good idea. Your just strengthening the classes who don't use spirit by weakening their opponants. Saying this is justified because their is an item in the game also doesn't work. That same item works exactly the same for the druids who can meditate without spamming, so they get the exact same advantage plus they get meditate. The logic here seems nonexistant, and I'd personally like someone to explain it, though I have my doubts to that happening. I'm sorry if this post came off as rude, but this was really a stupid change. I personally believe meditate should be 55 mind, just like its counterpart skill is in another stat. This would make druids who want it have to either up mind by 5 or spam, and the little half mages running around would lose a few points. These are the people that need to be reduced if any, not full mages.

-Craven, slightly angered his mages now all suck ass.

From: Drusilla Monday, October 25, 07:41PM

Pardon? I have 100 mind (101, actually) and have no trouble meditating. The amount of spirit required has been -lowered-, not -raised-.

From: Violence Monday, October 25, 08:17PM

While it is not impossible to have a 100 mind/fight stat mage and the stats to mediate without spam, you are going to be so short on one of the other 2 fight stats it's not even funny.

A much better solution to the meditate problem would have been to lower the spirit needed to 40 and add a mind req of 55-60 as it stands right now all this does is make us poor mages have to sit around for another 10 or so extremely boring minutes while we try and meditate. I have no trouble with the new gradual spam but to so hurt a mage like this buy making such a hard req is very annoying.


From: Violence Monday, October 25, 08:22PM

Just another note. As it now stands if you are a 3rd circle mage and want to be able to both use all the words and to mediate with no spam if you are a 100 Str or Dex mage with 100 Mind and after paying the min con for you spells you final 'fight' stat is 21. Hmmmm you can either never hit or do any damage.

Hardly a fun choice.


From: Pharku Monday, October 25, 10:29PM

I agree meditate should require no more than 40 spirit, you gotta be mad to go around with 50 spirit, most will wait it out instead. While 2nd circle need only 35 spirit for their spells it's always been a toss up whether to go the extra for no spam brew, 40 would be perfect for both types IMO.

From: Darkheart Tuesday, October 26, 02:58AM

mmm, sleeping isn't actually all that much slower than meditating, and the current spi req is awkward, but not too high. i'm just hoping for a piece of gear that gives the meditate skill at reasonable rent (say, 2-3k?) or looking into floating requirements, that seeks for two stats instead of one -- for example, the need for 100 total in spi and mind, instead of a set amount of spi alone.

but as it stands, i don't miss meditate too much compared to the benefit i'm reaping from having greatly reduced the number of silly spammers, or having reduced their stats to a more reasonable level.

if something was to be done, i'd personally ask for a mana-surgeon, somebody who'd use their own hps (5hp/5ma/5mv per mana operate? :p) so grouping does not hamper mages. as it stands, having mages group with anybody else other than mages makes runs far less efficient compared to groups with pure fighters and a surgeon... but then again mages still rock solo. oh well. not an easy choice


From: Kaeos Tuesday, October 26, 05:29AM

Being a sniper, I have given up stats in order to have a high enough perc to even get a decent backstab. Not to mention I have to have a high dex also to be a competative sniper. Like spirit, perc is a basically useless stat to have which only benefit is probably a good backstab which IMHO, sucks compared to a bash or headbutt due to the high ammount of dammage one takes from those. I feel that its fair that mages give up stats to meditate. Hell, I'm a sniper and I can meditate so it shouldn't be that difficult for a mage to be able to meditate.

Kaeos...Demonic Order GM.

From: Poetry Tuesday, October 26, 08:09AM

Im fine with the meditate requirement as far as managing the stats go. I do have to say though, that lowering the rent of "a popular mage and druid item" is one of these solutions that helps balance one type (full mages) but gives an advantage to other types.. druids that have meditate anyways. A druid/mage with meditate/root and that has that popular reduced rent item seems a bit much to me. I dont really care, Im proficient enough to deal with pkillers like that, and I dont care about unclanned having that huge advantage... but I can see poor frustrateds like Kaeos getting really upset when a druid with a chalice (eek I said it) heals 900 hps by drinking chalice, augmenting and meditating here and there too.

From: Poetry Tuesday, October 26, 08:25AM

hm, anyways, some sort of mind req for meditate does seem logical... remember dex mud? dex was the stat that governed to hit for bash.. a strength skill.. does that make sense? about as much sense as spirit being a pre-req for a skill that regens mana...

From: Ezri Tuesday, October 26, 01:09PM

Excuse me, but don't mages have other fighting skills besides weapons? Like magic? If you're a serious magic user and thus need meditate, then I don't see why you should be "entitled" to a 100 fight stat as well, since you have other kinds of fighting skills. If you want to play a 100-str fighter, do so, and if you want to play a 100-mind mage, do that, but it seems to me the game is more balanced if you don't get to do both (at least without some inconvenience.)

From: Poetry Tuesday, October 26, 02:15PM

I hope imms keep mind who is posting, what experience they have, what legend means to them, and how long they have been playing. All these things are important to giving good input. -poke Ezri's post-

From: Efreet Tuesday, October 26, 08:15PM

That's like saying snipers with 100 perc don't need fight stats, and those that augment don't need fight stats, and fighters don't need another 100 stat once they have a main fight stat. would be hell of a lot easier to balance if such was the case, i admit.

would be a hell of a lot less fun, too.


From: Craven Wednesday, October 27, 01:08PM

problem is erzi, mage spells can't alone do much of anything due to the nature of the current fight system. Maybe in the distant future they wouldn't need fightskills, but at this current time, they definatly do.

From: Violence Wednesday, October 27, 08:44PM

What Craven said..


From: Darkheart Wednesday, October 27, 10:33PM

I, uhm, involuntarily tried fighting without a dagger. It sucked.


From: Celeste Thursday, October 28, 01:37PM

Ezri's thingie about mages thinking they're "entitled" to a 100 fight stat -and- meditate, is, imho, just silly. 80% of my mages (c3) don't have any 100 stats at all, and though I'd love to have 100s, I certainly don't think myself 'entitled'. And still, having no 100 stats, I am still forced to spam med with them. (I spam med with the 100 stat mages (2 of em) too).

Mages do desperately need fight skills under this system. Of course there' always the exception that proves the rule -faint Skar- but mostly, combat spells -alone- simply do not deal enough damage to match a pure str/con/dexer's damage potential.

To all the people who like their c3 mages who have nospam med and find them viable, well - the opinion on whether or not a character is viable differs hugely. I, personally, do not find any of those I've designed with nospam med in mind (c3 mage only) to be viable, but that's just pesonal.

However, I'm glad the med req was at least lowered a bit so spamming for med if you have all the c3 word reqs isn't as much of a pain as it could be.

I would however, like very much to see something like a 60mind/40spir med req solely for c3 mages. Or heck, even make it 60mind 40perc/spir or 60 mind 40con/spir. It's easy for a nospam druid to say, oh I have nospam meditate and I can still cast my spells, I don't see the problem. The problem's simple. A 50 spir druid has lower reqs on -everything- else, when compared to a c3 mage. Lower mind req, lower perc req, lower con req, you get the idea.

Having meditate if based purely on spir go back to the old stats for everyone cept c3 mages is something I wouldn't mind, since druids need higher stats than the previous med req anyway, and surgeons...well..I'd prefer the current med req for all my surgeons. ;)

I just feel that in comparison, c3 mages have been given a rather bad deal when it comes to meditate.

Rambly Ces!

From: Celeste Thursday, October 28, 01:50PM

Doh, typoed on min druid stats but y'all know what I mean.

From: Skar Thursday, October 28, 03:54PM

Among other things, Celeste said two things in her post: "mages do desparately need fight skills" and combat spells don't "match a pure str/con/dexer's damage potential." I think she's half right.

The spells obviously don't cut it. However, I don't think the answer is to make it easier for mages to gain fight skills. I believe we should be lobbying for more effective spells instead -- spells that DO match a pure fighter's damage potential.

Despite Celeste's comment, I am not an exception to this rule. I suck at combat. Realizing early on that I couldn't be a top-notch warrior and be the mage I wanted to be, I decided to almost entirely give up on fighting and spend my resources on things that made me a better mage (+mana gear, platinum leaf, permafly). It's an effective approach, but only because I'm a create mage who can hide behind the creatures I summon. I doubt that a cause mage would do so well, and I still have serious limitations.

In order to address all the limitations of the mage skill set -- as I see it -- would require an almost complete redesign of the set. However, I have a suggestion for a feature that might be 'bolted on' to the current system.

In last week's Q&A, I suggested that the imms consider an 'arcane' weapon type -- one that performed in combat and did more damage if you had more mind. Something that would be analogous to the str/dex/con weapons we have now, but might use magical attacks like freeze or blast. Such weapons in the hands of a 100 mind mage should do at least the same damage as a staff in the hands of a 100 con warrior and perhaps should even do as much as a strength fighter. Perhaps these weapons might even use mana at a low rate as the mage uses them.

As far as specials are concerned, that's where the normal combat spells come in -- instead of choke, headbutt, or kick the mage would use stun, immolate, lightning bolt, flamestrike, etc.

In closing, I've always felt that there needed to be more of a separation between expert fighters and expert mages. If you want to fight and have spells, I think you should be less proficent at them compared to a character that specializes in one or the other. So if a mage has a harder time getting fight skills, I'm all for it -- just so long as they get their own rewards as compensation.


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